View source for Talk:Vote on 3 Policy Labels

== For Posterity ==
Because the email forum can just eat history like a black hole... --[[User:Lucas|Lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]) 20:44, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pumping-station-one/PArqcIK2WAc

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pumping-station-one/rt9n-EtFzJc

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pumping-station-one/X34cjS32Sd8

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pumping-station-one/9fWRWIp5IGk

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pumping-station-one/Vj57Kv_pqRw

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pumping-station-one/u6EF2q5VxRw

=== Context? ===

Do you have any context for what you posted? I'm tempted to wipe it as noise. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 20:49, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

Well in the past I have had a hard time finding email threads that have been referenced in the wiki. Making it hard to understand the context. This was just an attempt to keep all this discussion linked together. It it is not wanted it can just be wiped out. --[[User:Lucas|Lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]) 21:15, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

=== Original Vote ===
Also for posterity, as best I can tell the member meeting minutes for the original vote to buy the insurance policy happened here: [[Meeting Notes 2009-04-21]]. Not much descriptive text there unfortunately, but unless we changed policies some time after that, I think this is the vote to refer to if people need to. People may also find this helpful: [[Board Meeting Notes 2013-07-23]]. Meeting minutes from when our insurance agent came to talk to the board and gave some advice. It looks like it answers a lot of questions people have been having recently about our insurance, though it's not totally related to this vote. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 11:26, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

== Precedence? ==

I am curious. Is there any precedent to those policies? In other words, have any other policies ever been enacted by the board with no membership vote? --[[User:Lucas|Lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]) 11:32, 22 April 2015 (CDT)

* None that I am aware of. The precedent would be for these types of policies to go before the membership and be voted on with an explanation as to why they are needed. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 09:05, 23 April 2015 (CDT)

== Inflamitory Title ==

The title should be changed to something more neutral, such as Vote on Setting Policies. --[[User:Sylphiae|Sylphiae]] ([[User talk:Sylphiae|talk]]) 13:31, 22 April 2015 (CDT)

* Good call. I probably should have gotten into a more neutral mood before writing the first pass of this proposal. (The title has been changed_ --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 09:05, 23 April 2015 (CDT)

== Expiry ==

I like Joel's suggestion about the policies being in effect until member quorum is met rather than the language here about automatic expiry.

* Agreed. --[[User:Glenn|Glenn]] 23 April 2015


"expires 3 weeks after being voted on" does not specify that the board of directors voted on it versus membership voting on it. skm

== pointless or dangerous ==

:Most of this section was written by [[User:CarlFK]]. There's a lot in here to dispute, so I'm going to inline most of my comments. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 10:47, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

I think this "auto propose a vote" thing is bad. 

It does not do anything good for the space. There is no trade this for that for a net gain. There is a cost (the voting process), there is no gain, so the ROI is negative. 

:It does a lot of good for the space. The ultimate stakeholders of Pumping Station: One, NFP are the members. As such, the members decide the direction of the organization. If you think that the voting process is a "cost" and is "annoying", then you should probably make yourself a non-voting member. Those of us who actually have an interest in the running of the space want to vote on things. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 10:47, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

(bare with the 2 levels of voting here. We are voting on how to vote, so the word vote doesn't always reference the same thing.)

There is a 2x2 grid of choices made up of (this proposed vote (A)pass, (B)not pass) x (members (1)agree, (2)disagree)
A1, A2, B1, B2.

(A) Assume this proposed vote passes and now the members have to vote on all policies voted on and passed by the BoD.

There are two possible outcomes of such votes: pass or not pass. (not meeting quorum just delays the outcome.)

 (1) If the vote passes, nothing changes.  The existing policy is still in affect.  

 (2) If the vote does not pass, the policy is no longer in effect.  This leaves PS1 in an undefined state that is probably bad.  In the case of any of the 3 pseudo policies, PS1 no longer has insurance (or something that is essentially that.) 

:I think there's some weasely arguments that people have been making about this whole insurance thing. To be sure, I really, highly doubt that the insurance company would be allowed to simply drop coverage that we have been paying for just because we don't have a policy in place. If so, they would have dropped our coverage a long time ago. More likely if something happened, for example someone got bitten by a dog that should not have been allowed in the space, our policy wouldn't cover any damages brought before Pumping Station: One. To be sure this would be a bad thing, but it's not so ephemeral and fear mongering as the whole "they'll drop our coverage!" line we've been getting. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 10:47, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

::In the case of an animal attack at the space, the victim would most likely sue anyone related to the incident. This includes the dog's owner, the handler (if different), PS:One, each Board member personally, and the landlord. The insurance company will deny any coverage for this and throw everyone under the bus. PS:One would have to spend a considerable portion of its revenue in legal fees defending against this. But we also have a contractual obligation to insure our landlord, which we will have failed to do. Hence this would be a breach of our lease.

::Drinking after 2 AM is a different situation. In that case, a prior Board applied for insurance stating that we stop serving at 2 AM. In the event of a claim involving drinking after 2 AM, the insurer would likely consider it a misrepresentation on our part and cancel the policy, leaving PS:One, the Board members personally, and the landlord on the hook. As above, we have a contractual obligation to insure our landlord.

::The Board enacted the three policies it did to fulfill PS:One's obligations, which the Bylaws explicitly permits. --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 12:09, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

:::Whether or not we have a policy will not affect whether or not someone will sue us, and I still haven't seen any guarantee that having the policy means that the insurance company will still cover us if an animal does come in. Furthermore, having a policy in place will not prevent someone from actually bringing an animal into the space. Really, it doesn't. We don't need a policy in place to tell people that they're not allowed to have animals in the space either.

::: Now, if by some chance someone does manage to sneak an animal past our tight security into the space and have it bite someone before we have a chance to kick them out (perhaps even as part of the incident where we try to remove the animal, as is likely), what might happen? Will the insurance company go through our bylaws and policies to see that we totally had a policy saying that person couldn't bring an animal in? No, they will not do that. They don't care what our policies are. What they will care about is that we made a good faith effort to remove the animal from the premises as soon as we were made aware of the situation. For this, it doesn't matter that we have a policy. If we want to tell someone their pet can't be in the space, all we have to say is "our insurance doesn't allow us to have animals in the space." --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 12:24, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

:::: Before the policy, PS:One had an open door to dogs. After the policy, assuming we follow up by posting clear signs at the entrances, we will have taken every reasonable precaution to have prevented an accident. If we assume most people follow the rules, then hopefully nobody will bring a (non-service animal) dog to the space in spite of the rules, so nobody ever will get bit on the premises. If people follow the rules, then the policy just about eliminates the risk of a dog bite, and it also means we aren't endangering our landlord with liability that isn't insured against.

:::: Now in the unlikely case that someone does bring an animal (other than a service animal) into the space in spite of the policy, we have grounds to ask the person to leave. If the animal bites someone, we still have no insurance to cover the situation. But our liability situation is very different. In the former case, the owner, according to PS:One, did nothing wrong. PS:One allowed the animal that caused injury into the space. We knew we had no insurance coverage for it, and we let it happen anyway. Afterward, the animal and its owner were practically trespassing when the incident took place. We did everything in our power to prevent anything like that from happening. --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 23:33, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

(B) Proposed vote does not pass

 (1) the board did stuff, the members keep hacking.

 (2) Someone doesn't like what the board did.  they propose a vote of something different.  The members vote on it.

B2 is really a subset of our current process: Someone wants something that requires a vote and follows the existing procedure. 

A1 - voting paperwork
A2 - voting paperwork and possibly undesirable 

B1 - no paperwork
B2 - voting paperwork and probably desirable but maybe undesirable because evil future members.

My Summary: all this really does is force the membership to vote and pass more things. That is annoying work.
There will also be debates on what is and isn't a policy that needs to be voted on, not because anyone want's to over turn it, but we want to follow this rule we put in place.
I think the chance of the members revoking a policy is basically 0. 
If that 0 event happens, we currently don't know what state that will leave things in. 
I suspect there is a good chance it leaves us in a bad state and PS1 just shot itself in the foot.

:Again, if you don't like voting, and think it's "annoying", you can make yourself a non-voting member. Most of us who do vote do not think voting on policies is annoying and want to have a say in it. Whether or not we have these policies does not affect our obligation to the law or the insurance company. We don't need to make a policy that says "Don't murder people" because that's already illegal. The membership already agreed to enter into the contract with the insurance company when we bought the policy, therefore the membership already agreed to comply with it. The board really only needed to inform the membership of what was already agreed on. It's sort of a moot point anyways though because the point of this vote is not to figure out our insurance liabilities but to reaffirm the limits of the board's powers. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 10:47, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

We currently have the ability to shot ourselves, so passing this vote dose not give anyone any more abilities.

:To that I say, sure. The membership does have the ability to shoot itself in the foot, and that's okay. I believe that we won't because the membership is not as stupid and untrustworthy as people are trying to make us out as. Nothing that happens here suddenly gives us the right to do things that are illegal, and as the stakeholders in the organization, the members (we) are going to do everything in our power to do good things for the organization. We will not shoot ourselves in the foot. We're really not that dumb, I promise. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 10:47, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

== Opinion that pseudo-policies are not valid is incorrect ==

I object to the statement in the Background section of the vote "It's my opinion that the following three pseudo policies are invalid because they were not voted on by the general membership...." The Bylaws currently state that:

[[Bylaws#Issues Proper for a Vote of the Directors]]

    to fulfill any obligations to ensure the health of the organization.

In the case of these three policies, the Board decided to enact them to fulfil contractual and legal obligations to ensure the health of the organization. I can understand that someone might think the Board should not have done what they did. I can understand that someone may think the Bylaws should be changed so that the Board no longer has the power to do what it did. But the Bylaws as they exist today do allow for the actions in question. The policies themselves are valid. --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 01:54, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

* Setting policy was not necessary: Because those were already contractual obligations that space had taken on, the information on what the space had agreed to needed to be communicated, and a new official policy was not required. A few wiki pages detailing the info and an email out to the mailing list with an explanation would have sufficed. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 11:48, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
* Optionally, a follow up membership vote could have been run to set the policies in stone --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 11:48, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
* I'm willing to drop the background info, as it doesn't really have much baring on the vote itself. My larger interest is ensuring that the membership is able to be directly involved and able to ensure sufficient rigor in any policy that the membership is required to agree too. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 11:48, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

== Freedom to Create protected (and constrained) by Adherence to Law ==
Our space does not operate in a vacuum; there are certain legal, contractual, and life/safety obligations we need to fulfill in order to have the protections that we enjoy, and give us the freedom to create. If the membership have the capability of overruling the actions of the BoD on these type of matters, then we are creating an environment where non-legal activity can occur, especially in the case where a retrospective gap analysis shows that we are not operating within the confines of a contract, and modifications to existing policies need to occur in order to enforce compliance to that contract.

I would recommend wording as follows:
"Where there is a gap (or gaps) between existing policies and legal, contractual, or life/safety commitments, the Board of Directors is empowered to act in a proactive manner to bring the Organization into compliance as expediently as possible. It is incumbent upon the Board of Directors to communicate to the Membership the reason for the gap, and the rationale for the compliance-related activities. This communication shall be performed before- or concurrent-with the compliance-related activities."
--[[User:Bioguy|Bioguy]] ([[User talk:Bioguy|talk]]) 07:24, 25 April 2015 (CDT)


* The membership is not able to vote to do anything unlawful, see [[Bylaws#Issues Proper for a Vote of the Membership]] --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 11:39, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
* The thing I am most interested in is that the membership have the ability to apply our historically stringent process of ensuring the high quality of policies. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 11:41, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

I agree completely with your point #2. I disagree, however, on point #1, as the act of voting indicates a choice in wishing to meet contractual agreements that have already been put in place. I think we can vote to renegotiate our insurance policy, but we can't vote on whether or not we will comply with it once it has been signed, as that breaks the contract and nullifies our insurance policy.

Another point: we need definitions of what a Policy is. These three "policies" seem to me to be more like "House Rules."
--[[User:Bioguy|Bioguy]] ([[User talk:Bioguy|talk]]) 11:55, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

== Mistaken in thinking we had to pass policies ==

I've been talking this over with Carl and now I question that we needed to vote policies. Perhaps we just needed to post announcements that we've seen violations of of our insurance coverage and that
* people are not allowed to bring non service animals in to the space
* people are not allowed to drink between these times

And in addition, our insurance agent let us know that we need per-event coverage for events that xyz.

And if we want we could have reported back with the research Ryan did about how much it would be to get coverage for each of the above.

With all the conversations over the past few days I'm thinking that we didn't need to vote on and declare new policies.

We only needed to vote about whether we'd extend coverage for what we did and to vote not to add coverage for the other things. Then, if members want the other things they could vote to spend however much for new coverage. - skm


:AGREE!!! 100 MILLION PERCENT! --[[User:Bioguy|Bioguy]] ([[User talk:Bioguy|talk]]) 11:55, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

:Skm, I agree with your analysis. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 13:10, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

:The thing about having policies (however those come to be) that are in line with the requirements of our insurance coverage is that it makes it very easy to point at how we're complying with those requirements. This may not be a big deal, but it does seem like something to consider to me. --[[User:Dbever|Dbever]] ([[User talk:Dbever|talk]]) 20:02, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
::Putting up something on the wiki (or website) is probably a good idea, especially since we would have something to point to. I'd rather it not get the "policy" label until it's a membership vote, but I don't have a problem with something being posted immediately to indicate compliance. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 20:38, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
::but it will be ludicrous if we have to make policies for every item. we haven't made a policy to ban parkour or pyrotechnics but we'd need special coverage for those which we don't have right now --[[User:Skm|Skm]] ([[User talk:Skm|talk]]) 20:10, 25 April 2015 (CDT)

:::Skay, I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that we need a policy for every single item that may break the law? I think that was the slippery slope argument Sparr tried to use on the list. As for making announcements without having policies, it's sort of a distinction without a difference, I think? De facto instead of de jure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we wouldn't have gotten the same backlash that we did. --[[User:Sylphiae|Sylphiae]] ([[User talk:Sylphiae|talk]]) 20:13, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
::::Sylphiae, I was replying to Derek about whether having policies that we can point to to show that we comply would be helpful. we have a lot of exclusions other than the 2 we listed. I didn't mean to make a slippery slope argument but I did huh. --[[User:Skm|Skm]] ([[User talk:Skm|talk]]) 20:17, 25 April 2015 (CDT)
::I agree with Derek here and would say it is a very big deal. We can't have people drinking in the space at 3 AM claiming that it isn't a real policy so the Board can't enforce it. If the person is drinking at 3 AM, drives home, and gets in an accident, we need to prove that we weren't responsible. "Hey, see here, we enacted a policy, he violated the policy, so it's 100% on him, not us!" is our defense. We can't have someone argue "Well, it's not really a policy, so you kind of did allow the person to drink, so you share in responsibility for the accident." --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 01:43, 26 April 2015 (CDT)
:::One of the biggest issues I've seen is that policies can be too descriptive, and then when the commitments change, the policies do not. Why not a blanket policy that says "we will comply with facility requirements as spelled out by insurance policies" or something to that effect? That way we are not locking in overly specific language, but showing, for the record, that we intend to comply with requirements (As Derek pointed out above). We can further add something like "Specific requirements will be clearly posted" and then we can make signs and wiki posting clarifying what the "house rules" are. --[[User:Bioguy|Bioguy]] ([[User talk:Bioguy|talk]]) 08:53, 26 April 2015 (CDT)
::::Bioguy, while I wish we could do what you suggest, we can't expect the membership to digest 100 pages of nearly incomprehensible insurance-speak as a requirement to be a member of the space. We do have a blanket prohibition in the membership agreement against breaking the law, so we don't need a policy to ban development of nuclear weapons at the space. (But there was no way to stop or change an event that was about to break the law before it happened. We have had problems with event proposals or advertisements, usually around proposed sale of alcohol or charging at the door to attend a party. In the past, talking to the organizers fixes it, but there's no guarantee.) So the areas where policy would be needed most are for things we do allow, that are excluded from coverage by insurance, that do happen or are likely to happen, and that could result in liability. People did bring their pet dogs to the space, and there has been late night drinking. Telling everyone to read the insurance policy won't stop these. --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 09:25, 26 April 2015 (CDT)
:::::Bioguy, I just saw your edit about "House Rules." Are you saying that those three Board policies could have been renamed House Rules? That's an interesting thought. But I'm not sure the people objecting to the Board having the power to create policies to address obligations would be any happier with the Board having the power to create "House Rules" that effectively get enforced as policies. Also, the justification for the Board creating policies under the Bylaws relies upon addressing obligations. I think "House Rules" that don't stem from legal or contractual obligations should originate from the membership. (E.g. the Board shouldn't create a House Rule banning country music in the shop. If the majority of the membership hates Garth Brooks, they need to be the ones to propose the vote.) --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 09:25, 26 April 2015 (CDT)
::::::Actually Ryan, my intent was to be a lot simpler than that: The policy would be (simplified language) "We have insurance, which requires house rules. These house rules will be posted. The insurance policy in full is filed in the safe" or wherever. Then we have "House Rules" which are one side of one sheet of paper, which outline the three policies as they stand. These can be distributed or posted on a wall. This way, if the insurance changes, we don't have to create a new policy, just change the posted rules.--[[User:Bioguy|Bioguy]] ([[User talk:Bioguy|talk]]) 11:32, 26 April 2015 (CDT)

== This proposal ends up giving the Board new powers ==

The Board's authority to create policy under the current Bylaws stems from a power to "fulfill any obligations to ensure the health of the organization." While I recognize some persons worry that this could be loosely interpreted, I'd like to hope that the membership isn't going to assume an "evil board" that would abuse this. So the Bylaws set a high bar for the Board to enact a policy immediately.

This proposal allows the Board to implement *any* policy immediately. So it lowers the bar. A member who wants to propose a policy has to wait for it to be voted on, and it must pass before it becomes effective. But this proposal gives the Board a path unavailable to the general membership to create any policy it wants, without having to pass the high bar of "obligation" or really any bar, and it can be enforced from Day 1. The Board plays by very different rules here; member votes routinely fail due to lack of quorum, but via this mechanism, lack of quorum means the policy stays in force another week.

This fundamentally changes the structure of the organization. Right now I'd categorize it as "All policy authority rests in the membership, except in the case of legal and contractual obligations." This proposal gives the Board far more power and flexibility to create policy. Since the Board under this proposal would have the most efficient policy creation tools, it may become expected that the Board should use them, and that all policies really should originate with the Board. --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 09:57, 26 April 2015 (CDT)

:I propose that the language changes so that the board isn't given any new powers. I haven't decided what my vote will be, but it will definitely be no if the language does not change based on Ryan says here. --[[User:Skm|Skm]] ([[User talk:Skm|talk]]) 13:27, 26 April 2015 (CDT)

::Actually, I think I need to disagree with this. While this does grant the board additional powers to create temporary policies without waiting on a member vote to confirm them, it does not make any change to the bylaws, i.e. [[Bylaws#Issues Proper for a Vote of the Directors]]. So this wouldn't suddenly overrule the bylaws and grant the board the power to set arbitrary policies, however temporary they may be. A change to the language might still be in order to clarify that this does not change the bylaws though. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 12:02, 5 May 2015 (CDT)

== Automatic extension and rigid timeline prevents further editing ==

It sounds like the timeline is:

* A. Board enacts temporary policy
* B. (>=1 week from A) Board locks down language
* C. (>=1 week from B, <3 weeks from A) First member vote on temporary policy
* D. Each week thereafter, if quorum isn't met, another vote

Right now, with a member vote, if a late comment comes in after language lockdown that would fundamentally improve the vote, the sponsor can withdraw the vote and push it back a week. And, with a member vote, if quorum fails, the member can resubmit it as-is or can adjust it based on comments. If it can't be modified the evening it fails, then it pushes the next vote out two weeks.

With this process, it seems like the steering wheel gets torn out of the car after Step B. If a good comment comes in late, the Board can't push Step C back to incorporate it without causing the temporary policy to lapse. Also, the automatic extensions for Step D seem to prohibit further modifications if good input was received in the interim. So the rigid timeline here may result in lower quality than would be expected with member votes. --[[User:Rdpierce|Rdpierce]] ([[User talk:Rdpierce|talk]]) 10:36, 26 April 2015 (CDT)

:I think this is a pretty good point. There should probably be something in the language that allows the policy to be changed in between votes. Though I think this would already be allowed under normal voting procedures. To ensure there's no confusion we can add a sentence that says "Improvements to the policy can be made between votes if quorum is not met," or something to that tune. --[[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 11:22, 5 May 2015 (CDT)